A self-fulfilling prophecy
Her: "No, a man can't pray on the train at all, because there might be improperly-dressed women around. But that's the guys. When I get on the train, I've got 45 minutes to say Shacharit, and nothing distracts me."
Is it just me, or do you see an inconsistency in that statement?
By way of illustration, let me quote from Rabbi Judith Hauptman’s book, Rereading the Rabbis: A Woman’s Voice, in which she cites this story from the Gemara:
“’There were a number of women captives who, upon being redeemed, came to Nehardia and were housed [in an upper chamber at the home of] R. Amram the Pious. They removed the ladder [to deny access to the women. It happened that] when one of them passed by [the opening to the lower story], light fell from the opening [and R. Amram found himself sexually aroused]. He took the ladder, which was so heavy that ten men could not lift it and, all by himself, positioned it below the upper chamber and began climbing. When he was halfway up, he stopped himself and cried out: Fire at R. Amram’s! The rabbis came [running but, upon realizing the sexual nature of the fire, chided him, saying] you have shamed us. He said to them, better that you are shamed by me in this world than in the world-to-come.’
In this story . . . , a rabbi who is loyal to Jewish law finds himself sexually aroused, burning with passion, simply by seeing the shadow of one of the women in his upper chamber.”
In my opinion, the most interesting thing about this R. Amram story (whether it’s a true story or not) is not that R. Amram was able to control himself, with a little from his friends :), but that he had such a low threshold of sexual temptation that he started climbing the ladder in the first place.
Rabbi Yehudah Henkin observes, "This ideology prohibits a woman from standing out—and from being outstanding. She must not act in a play, paint a mural, play an instrument or otherwise demonstrate special skills in front of men, lest she attract attention and her movements excite them."
[Tuesday, September 2, 2008 clarification: As commented by Dilbert/Noam below, Rabbi Henkin was presenting Rabbi Falk's opinion, with which Rabbi Henkin disagrees.]
The opinion of the rabbis seems to be that, even if women do nothing whatsoever to cause sexual arousal in men, we are, nevertheless, held accountable, in practical terms, for said arousal or potential arousal. My blogger buddy Dilbert tells me, for example, that the law against kol isha ("a woman's voice") does not prohibit a woman from singing but, rather, prohibits a man from hearing a woman sing. However, he adds that, in practical terms, what usually happens is not that the man leaves the room, but rather, that the woman refrains from singing.
So I turned to the only authority on the subject of male sexuality of whom I feel comfortable, as a married woman, asking such questions. "Just how vulnerable is a guy to, um, visual stimulation, anyway? What if you see a woman in a low-cut blouse in the subway? Would you have a physical reaction?"
"I might," said my husband. "But so what? I can always distract myself and go about my business."
It seems to me that that approach is simply the result of the way a person raised left of Chareidi is taught to think (or not think) about women. If women are human beings who happen to have interesting bumps on the front (and other less visible but even more interesting parts), then, when circumstances demand it, one can distract oneself from the bumps and parts and deal with a woman as another human being. The bumps and parts don't disappear, but one doesn't focus on them. I am reminded of the Modern Orthodox blogger who commented that having a bad memory for names gets him in trouble in business meetings with women because, while he'd love to refresh his memory by looking at their name tags, he keeps himself focused on business by trying to look at their faces only, and their name tags are generally fastened, um, considerably lower down. :)
"Then why this obsession with women's sexuality?"
"I think it has to do with men's obligation to study Torah. Women are a distraction. It's not such a problem for women, from an Orthodox point of view, because, according to Orthodox interpretations of halachah, women aren't obligated to study Torah, but men are."
Okay, so maybe it's not the worst thing in the world for men and women to study separately. And I can understand the point of having a mechitzah during prayer, though I'm not bonkers about it. But are men really so vulnerable to visual stimulation that they can't be in the presence of women under any circumstances without suffering from serious sexual temptation, as seems to be the opinion in some Chareidi communities?
On a related topic, Sweet Rose said, “The message being sent is that we are all too weak to handle any challenges, that any kind of temptation must be taken away from before us in order to be able to function as an Orthodox Jew. I think this makes us even weaker - when we are not taught how to handle any temptation or challenge, we subsequently become unable to handle it when we have to.”
We worry about children playing with matches. But as children grow, we teach them how to use matches properly. Similarly, we should teach our children how to deal appropriately with sexuality. If that means abstinence under certain circumstances, fine. But abstinence from the sex act is completely different from abstinence from almost all avoidable contact with half the human race. I think there's something fundamentally immature about a man born in the twentieth century believing that he has so little self-control that he can't even walk on the same side of the street as a woman—and then projecting that phobia (yes, I said phobia) onto women and making us pay for it. Why should a woman playing piano in the presence of a man be worth even discussing?
The last word on this subject goes to a young blogger raised in a Chareidi neighborhood. Finding herself a college student mixing socially with men for the first time in her life, she realized that it's not only possible to maintain one's standards even when not sheltered from the necessity of doing so, it's also better that way.
"i've learned how to talk to them [males] as though they are normal people and not the boogey man. you know, say what you will for tzneous [modesty], but everybody's gotta grow up sometime . . . "
If you're raised to believe that you can't resist the opposite sex and that it's their fault as much as the fault of your own weakness, you'll act that way. If you're raised to believe that, however much temptation you face, it's ultimately up to you to resist, you'll act that way. The manner in which sexuality is approached by some of the rabbinic sages and taught to some in the Chareidi community is a self-fulfilling prophecy that lends itself to lifelong immature attitudes toward members of the opposite sex.
As Fudge said, "everybody's gotta grow up sometime."
Labels: Kol Isha
13 Comments:
Hi Shirah,
This was a very interesting post, and I think you raise some very valid points.
I have to say that I agree that the argument that men are so aroused by women that it's not safe to be near them is stretching it majorly.
If I can walk around in public, in the midst of men, and not give it a second thought, why can't Orthodox men?
I mean, it's not like being near a woman is going to be so tempting there's no way of resisting.
It's all about self control.
Rahel, I find the opinions expressed by some of the ancient sages, and by some Chareidi rabbis, quite puzzling for the same reason--a man's ability to control himself seems not necessarily to be assumed.
I hasten to point out that my post is more applicable to Chareidi men than to Modern Orthodox men.
Besides the fact that I get annoyed that women are expected to cover up and "shield" men from seeing us uncovered and turning them on, I just feel like it's got to be an extremely demeaning mentality for men to hear over and over, that they are unable to control themselves. I believe that goes completely against Torah, which indicates that we are above animals and should elevate ourselves as such. To speak of men's sexuality as something that is so easily unrestrained seems, to me, to make them at the level of animals and I find that very scary.
Shoshana, I have no problem with the idea that my tops shouldn't be cut so low , or my skirts or pants cut so high, as to reveal anything "interesting." Extremes, though, do make me cringe. What's so sexy about a woman's elbows?
" . . . it's got to be an extremely demeaning mentality for men to hear over and over, that they are unable to control themselves." People talk all the time about how some of the more traditional attitudes toward women are insulting to women. What amazes me is that it doesn't seem to have occurred to anyone, rabbinic or otherwise, just how badly *men* are insulting *themselves* with these attitudes.
"To speak of men's sexuality as something that is so easily unrestrained seems, to me, to make them at the level of animals and I find that very scary." Ouch. I hadn't thought of it quite that way.
I don't think they see it as insulting... you've got to remember, these are for the most part bookish fellows who spend all day sitting (or standing, or swaying) around learning and davenning. For them to hear that they have uncontrollable animal urges and boy, those women had better protect themselves from arousing you, is probably quite appealing. It's yiddische machismo.
Reb Dovid as Don Juan. Well, I certainly never thought of *that* one. Still, I'd prefer that they not get their ego boost at my expense.
A coupla things:
1. It has always been the philosophy of Traditional Torah Judaism to build fences around the law. Ideally one would think that if you need several layers of fences, it's not really the fences you are worried about, but what they are surrounding. So many of the rules that are set up to separate men from women have the ultimate goal of preserving the sanctity of marriage and family and allowing men to focus on their Torah study, but what we have is that consequently there are an awful lot of rules set up to prevent people from ever get in range of violating anything.
In an ideal society, you might say, "well, ok, I see the point, but for me, I will not personally be aroused by a woman singing or wearing a bikini on the subway or whatever, therefore I can transgress this fence without consequence." Technically, yes, but that's not how halacha works. And
2. In our society, most of these fences have been torn away, leaving sanctity of marriage and family very open to assault. Which is what we have. So modern society looks at our archaic ways and laughs at us because we worry about exposing a woman's pinky. Meanwhile premarital sex, divorce, infidelity and all kinds of deviance are rapidly becoming their norms. You decide what's better.
3. I do think that often times when the gemora relates these stories they are exaggerated to make the point. There are many bizarre stories in the Talmud that my friends and I used to snicker at during long chevrusah sessions. However, I'm not sure we know how to pick and choose so we're stuck with it.
4. It is my very strong personal belief that Hashem gives us talents and skills to use in his service, and it is our job to figure out how to do that. I am not willing to say that half of my offspring should be neither seen nor heard and should suppress their talents because of narrowminded interpretations of the texts by men who lived in times when mysogyny was the norm. But again, there needs to be away to do things within the rules, and that's why we have our rabbis.
5. Finally, separation of the sexes is not always a bad thing. Study after study has shown that boys and girls do much better in single-sex classes and schools than in mixed. Not having to deal with sexual tension allows kids to focus on their studies and their personal development.
1. "well, ok, I see the point, but for me, I will not personally be aroused by a woman singing or wearing a bikini on the subway or whatever, therefore I can transgress this fence without consequence." Technically, yes, but that's not how halacha works.”
There seems to be a limit to how much one is permitted to rely on one’s own judgment within the halachic system, and I have a problem with that.
2. “modern society looks at our archaic ways and laughs at us because we worry about exposing a woman's pinky. Meanwhile premarital sex, divorce, infidelity and all kinds of deviance are rapidly becoming their norms. You decide what's better.”
Same problem—why must this be an “either-or”? I have a problem with halachah as a package deal. Surely there must be a better way to protect the sanctity of marriage than to lock women in a box.
3. “However, I'm not sure we know how to pick and choose so we're stuck with it.” Again, same problem—I’m not big on package deals. For me, it’s a math problem: If A yields B, what happens when you don’t believe that A is correct? So if the ancient sage Rav Sheshet says that a woman’s pinky is obscene and therefore a woman’s singing voice is obscene, why should I believe the latter when I don’t believe the former? The problem I have with the idea of the Oral Law being from Hashem is that that approach to laws that were quite clearly written by men makes it awfully difficult to say that the Emperor has no clothes, since the Emperor is the King of the King of Kings. I refuse to abdicate the right to call ‘em as I see ‘em—if it doesn’t make sense, it doesn’t make sense, no matter who said it.
“4. It is my very strong personal belief that Hashem gives us talents and skills to use in his service, and it is our job to figure out how to do that. I am not willing to say that half of my offspring should be neither seen nor heard and should suppress their talents because of narrowminded interpretations of the texts by men who lived in times when mysogyny was the norm.”
Okay, now we’re on the same page! Amen!
“But again, there needs to be away to do things within the rules, and that's why we have our rabbis.” So the rabbis of old created problems by interpreting texts in accordance with the attitudes of their day, and the rabbis of our time help us work around those problems while staying within the rules. I would hope so, but I don’t always see that, in practice. It seems that, in our day, rabbis are just as likely to create chumrot (added stringencies) as to find ways to make the law less stringent in areas in which it’s possible. I’ve heard it said, if I remember correctly, that the problem with the current approach to halachah taken by many rabbis is that everything’s determined by precedent, rather than being decided on a case-by-case basis. My first rabbi in New York was the son of an Orthodox rabbi from a small town whose congregants relied on him for halachik rulings (p’sak din?) on everything, including whether or not a chicken was kosher. His decision was based not only on halachah, but also, on the financial circumstances of a congregant. If he knew the congregant to be reasonably well off, he would declare the chicken treif (not kosher, which meant that the congregant would have to throw the chicken into the garbage) if there was even the slightest doubt about whether or not the chicken was kosher. But if he knew that the congregant couldn’t afford to buy another chicken, he would do his best to find a way to rule that the chicken was kosher, if he could possibly find a way within halachah. Today, a kosher butcher is caught selling treif meat, and the entire Jewish community of that town is forced to throw out any kitchen implement that can’t be kashered (made kosher again through boiling, burning, and/or other permissible method). Did anybody in the local rabbinate give a hoot about whether the less well-off members of the community could afford to replace half of their kitchen utensils, storage containers, etc.? I guess I see this as related to the manner in which attitudes toward woman that may have been appropriate two thousand years ago are still upheld today. Rabbi Yehuda Henkin’s attitude that “we must accept our limitations with love and understanding” (I think that’s a quote from his book "Equality Lost") is absolutely beyond my comprehension and, therefore, unacceptable to me. Accept a limitation if there's no longer a good reason for it? Why should I? I refuse! How does not listening to a woman sing, or avoiding even watching her play the violin, protect the sanctity of marriage?
“5. Finally, separation of the sexes is not always a bad thing. Study after study has shown that boys and girls do much better in single-sex classes and schools than in mixed. Not having to deal with sexual tension allows kids to focus on their studies and their personal development.”
I won’t argue with you on that. The only problem I have with single-sex education is the separate-but-unequal part—if they teach the same things to boys and girls, that’s fine, but when they teach the boys Gemara and the girls Navi, that’s an issue.
To Mark/PT and my other more traditional readers, please understand that I may disagree, but I mean no disrespect. The Orthodox approach does include much that I respect and from which I can learn. I don't intend to throw out the baby with the bathwater, as the saying goes. For example, one law that makes perfect sense for protecting the sanctity of marriage is shmirat n'giah, the law against physical contact between men and women who are not members of the same family. If there's one law guaranteed to keep people from falling into bed with one another when they shouldn't be, it's a law that says that they're not even allowed to touch, much less kiss.
The halacha, as first cited in the Talmud, states that Shema should not be recited in the presence of certain parts of uncovered female anatomy. The word used regarding the uncovered areas is 'ervah.' 'ervah', is used in the Bible as nakedness, or better, areas that should remain covered(therefore, the phrase used in the prohibition of certain unions(brother/sister etc) is don't reveal her 'ervah'.) The gemara comes up with different areas that are termed ervah- hair, thigh, etc. What one actually views as forbidden to see during prayer depends on which viewpoint one holds, and whether ervah is viewed strictly as an anatomical term, or needs to be seen in context as well. Is all hair ervah? or is the hair of your 90 year old grandmother different from Jessica Simpson's hair(not that I find Jessica's hair all that attractive, but it serves as a useful example.)
For those who hold strictly by anatomic definitions, there obviously is a problem with praying on the train, if there are women with uncovered body parts and hair(it should be noted that opinions exist that if one is habituated to see certain parts, even though it is better not to daven with them in view, it isn't forbidden.)
Another note. One of the reasons we don't wear tefillin all day long is that we have to try to have clean thoughts while wearing tefillin. So, if one is having unclean thoughts, it may be better not to wear tefillin while having them.
The big picture: Mark is correct in noting the fences that exist to protect against the truly wrong. Laws of modesty(tzniut) are one of those fences. The reality is that the fences may not be there because everyone needs them, but that only a small percentage need them, and for their sake, the fences exist for all of us. I also agree that some of the laws of tzniut are clear reflections of the surrounding cultural milieu. While the basic principles of modesty need to be maintained, the 'chumras' that grew up mostly because of cultural contamination hold no such sanctity.
Rabbi Henkin, who was quoted in the post, published an article in Tradition magazine a number of years ago, where he dismantled a book written by a R. Falk. R. Falk compiled a list of practices that he felt were mandated by halacha, which were pretty extreme. R. Henkin, in very methodical fashion, showed how R. Falk had exaggerated in some places, and misquoted in others, and that the mandates of halacha were not as severe as R. Falk made them out to be. Make no mistake, R. Henkin does believe in tzniut, and holds a pretty strict view of kol isha(singing voice of a woman). However, I think in the quote cited, he is against closeting the women away, and is advocating the position that women can have a visible role in society, all with in the bounds of 'moderate tzniut.'
“The halacha, as first cited in the Talmud, states that Shema should not be recited in the presence of certain parts of uncovered female anatomy.” So this general precaution is actually codified in halachah.
“it should be noted that opinions exist that if one is habituated to see certain parts, even though it is better not to daven with them in view, it isn't forbidden.” That sounds more like dealing with current reality. I think that it’s equally important for us non-Orthodox to know that such opinions exist as for Orthodox Jews to know this, lest those of us farther to the left make the egregious error of thinking of the entire Orthodox community as extremists. In my opinion, it’s essential for all of us to understand that there is a wide range of opinions within the Orthodox community.
“Another note. One of the reasons we don't wear tefillin all day long is that we have to try to have clean thoughts while wearing tefillin. So, if one is having unclean thoughts, it may be better not to wear tefillin while having them.” An interesting point. One can’t expect any human being to maintain pure thoughts at all times, and it’s good to know that traditional practice takes this into account.
“The big picture: Mark is correct in noting the fences that exist to protect against the truly wrong. Laws of modesty(tzniut) are one of those fences. The reality is that the fences may not be there because everyone needs them, but that only a small percentage need them, and for their sake, the fences exist for all of us.” I guess I, personally, find some of the fences a bit much. I can understand the concerns for modesty of dress (tzniut beged, tznuit l’vush?). And I can understand the practice of shmirat n’giah, restricting physical contact between unrelated men and women. But some of the “fences” take in rather too much territory for my preference. Is this really necessary?
“However, I think in the quote cited, he [Rabbi Henkin] is against closeting the women away, and is advocating the position that women can have a visible role in society, all with in the bounds of 'moderate tzniut.'” Thank you for clarifying that. He and I will never agree about kol isha, but at least we don’t disagree on everything.
I have to admit, though, that I’m not sure that either you or Mark/PT has addressed my original premise. As I said, “If you're raised to believe that you can't resist the opposite sex and that it's their fault as much as the fault of your own weakness, you'll act that way. If you're raised to believe that, however much temptation you face, it's ultimately up to you to resist, you'll act that way.” To what extent are the rabbis themselves responsible for creating the very reactions to women that they’re trying to prevent?
I dont think that orthodox Jews are raised to think that they cannot resist the temptation posed by women, any more than they are raised to think that they cannot resist the temptation posed by a cheeseburger(and no, I am not comparing my wife to a big mac). There are many temptations that an orthodox Jew must avoid: illicit relations, non-Kosher food, unethical business practices, violating the Shabbat, putting ones life in danger(smoking), etc. Various fences exist to protect the person from the temptation. Some temptations are percieved as stronger than others, thus more fences. However, I dont believe for one minute that people are raised to think that if the fences were not in place, they would have no chance and succoumb to temptation. Its just that it is easier to avoid the temptation with the fences in place. The fences are an aid, and a reminder, not a neccessity. And, as we well know, they are not fool-proof. Of course one can find statements in the gemara about the alluring power of women, but there are also statements about rabbi's carrying women and their shoulders, and referring to them as white geese, so removed are any impure thoughts from their minds.
The people who are extending the rabbi's fences to impregnable fortresses are responsible for a group of people who grow up with absolutely no contact with females, except their mother and sisters(if they have any). They identify females as 'other', since they have no significant experience with them. This also is not creating a self-fullfilling prophecy, only socially mal-adroit males, who poorly understand the opposite sex.
Dilbert, maybe I have an exaggerated idea of the influence of the rabbis. As you were saying, though, the problem of men with limited exposure to women treating us as "other" and generally having no idea how to comport themselves with us is certainly an issue.
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